“But if we have this armor or self-protection around us all the time, then we…sort of miss out on these opportunities that humans do need to survive. Like we need to belong to a group, we need to survive, we need to make contact and connection. And there’s an impact for that in terms of our wellbeing, there’s an impact for that in terms of, you know, I think every aspect of our life. So I think making contact, even if it’s unsatisfactory, is data. It teaches you something about yourself and teaches you maybe something about the other person.”—   Nnaceesay Marenah

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Show Summary

In a fast-moving world, it’s easy for leaders to lose touch, with themselves and with the people around them. In this episode, Oana Amaria sits down with Nnaceesay Mercier and Tsheli Lujabe to explore the Gestalt concept of contact and what it really means to connect with authenticity in leadership and everyday life.

Making contact goes beyond communication. It’s about presence, curiosity, and the willingness to truly engage with another person’s experience. Through personal stories and reflections from their work with leaders around the world, the conversation explores how self-awareness, vulnerability, and listening can deepen relationships and open the door to real transformation.

Join us for a thoughtful conversation on what it means to be present, how authentic contact shapes stronger leadership, and why meaningful connection is more essential than ever.

Learning Highlights From This Episode:

• DEI needs to be embedded across the organization, following the SIMPLE framework (Shared, Integrated, Measurable, People-Centered, Leader-Driven, Equitable).
• The core pillars of adaptive leadership are what guides high-trust cultures and innovation.
• How the success metrics of DEI are key to future-proofing your business.
• Practical reflections on bringing more presence and connection into everyday leadership

Hear the Full Episode On:

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About Our Guests

Nnaceesay Mercier

Nacee Marenah is a 3x founder with a background in executive search, education, and leadership development.

She began her career in recruitment in London before building an executive search firm in West Africa. She later founded and ran Montessori schools in The Gambia, giving her firsthand experience as an operator building organisations and teams.

Now based in the UK, she runs an executive search practice supporting startups, search funds, and acquisition-led companies in the US, and works as a certified executive coach supporting leaders in both public and private organisations.

She enjoys connecting with founders, operators, and investors focused on building strong teams and thoughtful organisations.

Tsheli Lujabe

Tsheli Lujabe is a Leadership and Organisational Development Consultant and Executive Coach with more than 25 years of experience spanning the private, public, humanitarian and not-for-profit sectors. She works alongside senior leaders and organisations, supporting and enabling them to navigate complex leadership, culture, and change challenges.  worked across Europe, Africa and the Middle East, and in industries spanning Financial Services, Pharma, Healthcare, Mining, Automotive, FMCG and the Humanitarian sector, Tsheli brings a rare combination of cultural sensitivity, commercial insight, and psychological depth to her work. Tsheli’s approach integrates the self, relationships with others, and a systemic lens.  Her approach bridges strategy and humanity, helping leaders and teams navigate complexity with courage and compassion.  Tsheli is driven by a strong belief in the spirit of Ubuntu (I am a human being through my connection to other human beings).  Tsheli is South African by origin and also holds British citizenship.  She is based in the UK.  She enjoys endurance sports for her physical and mental wellbeing.  

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tsheli-lujabe-170a4915/

Instagram: @tshelilujabeconsulting

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Resources & Links

Social Innovation From the Inside Out By Warren Nilsson & Tana Paddock

The article argues that meaningful social innovation starts not with better programs or outputs, but with the inner alignment of the people doing the work. When leaders focus on form, urgency, or over-responsibility instead of awareness and values alignment, the work can look effective while quietly reproducing the same patterns it aims to change. Lasting impact emerges when attention shifts from “doing good work” to noticing how we are being while we do it.

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Full Transcript

Oana Amaria: Oh my goodness, I’m so excited to start up our Stories from the Field episodes again. It’s been a while. Last year was quite a year to say the least. And so I’m very pleased to start this new series with some dear friends and really kind of lean into a slightly new direction. There’s a lot of conversations that I’ve been having online and on LinkedIn around the Gestalt practice that I’m currently a part of and I thought, what better way to introduce you all to this idea of holism and integration and becoming than with these two incredible human beings. And so today’s conversation is really about what it’s like to make contact and even saying that out loud, I’m sure a lot of people are like, what are you talking about? What does that mean?

Oana Amaria: So I thought maybe first we could start with some introductions and maybe to set my intention for this conversation. For me, really, it was about how do we stay in contact with ourselves and with each other in these very uncertain moments? And I think sometimes that becomes really, really hard. I know that’s a conversation we have with leaders all the time across the board with all three of us. And so that was my inspiration for this topic. And with that said, I’d love to just ask you to jump in and introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about you. Who wants to jump in?

Tsheli Lujabe: Okay, so my name is Tsheli, Tsheli Lujabe. I’m originally from South Africa. I have a background as a clinical psychologist and have been, which informs my work. However, I’ve been working for the last 20 plus years as a leadership and organizational development consultant. And have been really interested in Gestalt methodology for exactly the reason that Oana just mentioned, which is that sense of wholism, but being able to look at not who you are in fragments and showing up as the confident me or showing up as the professional me but being able to show up as all these different sides and what does that mean for how I have contact with myself and we’ll be talking a little bit more about that just now and contact in relationship with others so part of my practice is being relational and I’m based in the UK and work in lots of different countries across the world.

Nnaceesay Marenah: Thank you, Tsheli and Oana. Thank you, Oana, for the reminder to get in touch with ourselves. It reminds me a little bit of the activity we did at Gestalt, iGold, which is the first one around who are you. So just really thinking about that, think in essence, I’ve been a seeker for most of my life. So I spent the first 10 wondering, how do people get jobs? And how do you put people who are really suited for this work get into this work? How do you form relationships? How do you maintain relationships with candidates long term? So I think really long term relationships has formed a foundation of the work that I’ve done. So I did that for the first 10 years of my career. And then for the next almost decade, I worked with how do human beings think? How do we develop? Like what influences our development? What role does environment have? So

I was a mom at that point and I got interested in the development of my son and working within Montessori I ended up starting a school and doing training and making contact, actually, a lot of contact then. And I moved back to the UK and I’m again seeking what I want to do with the next few years of my life. And I went back to executive search. And quite interestingly,

Right now I’m more interested in working with people who are interested in buying businesses that have been, that don’t have a succession plan per se, but ⁓ are baby boomer businesses. So that’s the kind of people that I’m interested in searching with now. Yeah. It’s a long introduction.

Oana Amaria: I think it, it helps us get settled into the Gestalt setup versus our usual leadership show up. And what you said actually reminded me of the full circle I feel like I’ve had since our Cape Town experience where the whole reason I was so interested in Gestalt was around resistance.

And if we think about the conversation with contact  and we think of, you know, my entire career was about helping leaders and organizations navigate difference, initially it was like cross-cultural competence, unconscious bias, then anti-racism. And now it’s like back to what I call DEI light.  But it’s still hard. 

I recognized earlier in my career, and especially when we were doing anti-racism programming, that I felt underskilled in how I noticed and how I, the meaning making I was making with resistance. And the empathy in me was like, this is a really hard conversation. But like the facilitator in me is like, let’s move on.

Oana Amaria: You know, we have this agenda, we have this many minutes left, right? And now it just makes me think of, I feel so much more upscale to have to meet people where they are. And I think that’s part of what contact means for me is understanding how contact works. And we’ll maybe get into that in the conversation of, what does it even mean? But also, you know, if we think about the people that are listening to this, they want to know. We have these incredible experiences and the people that we touch in our work. And I’m wondering if maybe, and I could share a story for myself and then maybe we can get into this need for contact of why it matters. 

But a while ago, I feel like maybe it’s been four years now, we scaled this huge project with this company called Peloton that many people are familiar with. This was during COVID days. And part of the scaling is we were leading these conversations with leaders. part of the conversation, know, as many organizations had signed up for these commitments to anti-racism.

And so we were leading sessions and we did it virtually. So it was like a four part series and module one was  forming, norming, storming, et cetera, right? And I’ll never forget that every time I got to the part of the module, we called it white supremacy week because we were introducing the concepts of the dominant culture paradigm and the deep conversations around how actually we do this across cultures, across borders. So, the key power characteristics is really like a more accurate way to talk about some of these things and how I would just like get myself ready for that week, you know. And it was really, really hard. And I think about what making contact for me meant at that time and what it means for me now.

For me at that time, it was like putting my armor on. Because we have a pair facilitation model where it would never be Felicia or Jason that would do that section. It was always me. And so I had to show up with, this is how I do these things. These are how these characteristics showed up in my success, in my style, in how I was rewarded in corporate professional culture. And I would have, you know, all types of reactions from deflection, like, what does this mean? I don’t understand to ⁓ outright, like, I don’t agree, you know? So making contact there, I felt like I showed up as one of the persuader.

Let me show up with all the data. Whereas now I, and I’m feeling it in my body and in my hairs are standing on my head. I show up with the invitation of understanding what it’s touching.

Tsheli Lujabe: Yeah.

Oana Amaria: And I think that’s really, really powerful and the gift of the program that we’re in. And so maybe I’ll stop there and ask if maybe you all are willing to share a story or think of just like that real moment and it could be work and we can get into personal. I think personal is harder. So that’s why I’m starting with work because personal is very vulnerable, but is there a version of that for you?

Tsheli Lujabe:I think there certainly is a version of that for me and I think it’s the example I have is you know working with really senior leaders and organizations and there’s times where it’s about them getting in contact with their authentic selves and needing to inquire into what has shaped them to be the leaders that they are today.

And then who are they? And to tell that story in lots of different ways. So sometimes in the way of creating a lifeline and then being able to actually share that with a group of colleagues that they may never have shared certain things with. And what are the choices they make about what they share and what they don’t share? 

Or doing it in the form of a shield and maybe using drawings which can be quite uncomfortable for people. And I think at a certain point I used to feel quite anxious and so in my own anxiety had, if we talk about resistance, had this should in my in my ear where I was like well I should be less anxious I should be less anxious which would only make me more anxious and therefore not be in proper contact with myself and then I would start to over explain what it was I was trying to do which would then make me in less contact with them and then probably you know a domino effect of them being in less contact with themselves. 

What I’ve found over time and more recently is as I get more comfortable with who I am as a practitioner and and more comfortable with emergence, I might put it that way, in those situations doing more less of the should and slowing myself down to also be able to be vulnerable with myself because I think a part of me was also afraid to share some of those aspects and afraid about what it means to be open and how open you can be. And I think as I become more in contact with myself around that, it allows me when I’m facilitating those type of sessions to relax and therefore see what happens and not over explain and just say this is what it is let’s give it a go.

And that, I think that creates a much more permeable boundary rather than a the professional self coming to the fore. So that’s an example and it just creates a sense of richness in terms of what people are actually able to share with each other.

Oana Amaria: And it almost sounds like less facilitator, right? And more intervener, which is hard sometimes when you’ve been the facilitator more. Or that’s what your role is for that client. That’s what they see you as.

Tsheli Lujabe: Yes. There’s another tricky aspect when, because I think how one is or shows up as a facilitator is also about the relationship with who you are working with and how you are in contact with who you are working with. And I think also makes a difference in terms of what happens with the people that you’re facilitating.

Nnaceesay Marenah: Sort of oscillating between personal and I guess they’re all interlinked. So I’ll just say, you know, like I, when we were quite young, we lived in my grandmother’s house. So we lived downstairs in my grandmother’s house with my mum and dad. And my grandmother lived upstairs and my uncle was a parliamentarian and then every election cycle, there’d be like floods of people in there. And elections are really interesting in Africa because, you know, there’s a lot of like conversations that go on around them. And I just watched my grandmother making contact with different people and the different stories they had in support of her son. 

And I think back to my work of Montessori and just, you know, having one life experience of ⁓ being a Gambian woman. And then, you know, through the application forms, we actually try to ask people a lot of questions about being like, tell us about a time when, you know, you felt ashamed, tell us about a time that you felt you’d done something that really moved you. What is your purpose?  

You know, having these multitude of like realities really shifted how I saw contact and really shifted like the mission of the work that I wanted to do. Because I think as a leader, you can sometimes have a one track mind that you go and say, I’m going to do one of these communities, but you don’t really have an understanding as much as you do. And I think as much as you think you do. 

And, you know, I think like really connecting and listening to people under shared purpose. And I wonder if the shared purpose also made that, facilitated that ability to listen and really learn from people. I remember one of my fellows would always say, Nacee you wouldn’t understand. And I’d be like, but try me. And then when he’d say, was like, actually, I do understand a little bit of that. And I think when we make contact, there’s always that we’ll find a piece of ourselves in the conversations that we’ll have. 

It’s an opening to like become more human. for me, it’s, yeah. So I think it was really observing my grandmother and how she made contact. And it was in a very also like power driven way that my grandmother sometimes made contact. And then seeing that, trying that out and then thinking, no, actually this doesn’t really work for me. The times are a lot more different as well. And thinking about how I would like to make contact. Yeah. So I think that’s part of what I’d say, yeah.

Oana Amaria: You know, it’s interesting in your example, for the sake of people that are listening, it’s like contact is engagement, contact is discovery, contact is listening. What else would you add if we were to break it down?

Tsheli Lujabe: I would say contact is about change as well. So like changing yourself but also through it changing the other person. It doesn’t have to be like this huge change but even just the smallest shift which could just be an insight. I actually think it happened to me now listening to your story you know Nnacee of your your your grandmother just created like a shift. 

I noticed my energy shifting and I noticed just even emotionally something happening for me and me starting to to think of, you know, similar moments. But there was just something, an insight that I had just from what you said. And I think part of that is is is contact.

Oana Amaria: Yeah, contact this flow, like the vibe, right? Actually, it makes me think of Nnacee when we had our last catch up. And I said something like, I didn’t even know I needed this, but I’m so glad that we connected. And it really does feel like that tall glass of cold water when you didn’t know you were thirsty, right? So if I were very visual, obviously, and I like symbolism, I think it’s also contact is, or how you feel when making contact is a really good antenna or like indicator. If you’re noticing enough, you’re practicing to notice, like how did that feel making contact, right?

Nnaceesay Marenah: Yeah, the visuals always work for me. And I love what you said, Tsheli about being changed. I couldn’t remember the quote, but it’s something around like being willing to be changed by the conversation. And one with what you said, there’s this concept of satisfactory contact also in Gestalt that actually that we make this effort to be in relationship. like, is it like how can we make that contact satisfactory, which is also a bit of a skill.

And what gets in the way when that’s not there? What gets in the way of me? What gets in the way of each other? Yeah, so I think maybe that’s what at necessary willing to be changed, like Tsheli said, and that’s satisfactory contact. like you said

Tsheli Lujabe: And I think sometimes, you know, what you said about the willingness to be changed is I noticed sometimes, and actually it happened in the last couple of days, is I was working with a client and there was one of the participants who was really inquisitive. So if I put it, if I frame it, was really inquisitive, spoke a lot and I then started to have the thing in my mind of, this person’s not listening, actually. He’s not listening to other people. And I think others were also having an experience of him not listening. And then started to withdraw. 

So I think with the withdrawal, and then I noticed myself, not withdrawing but maybe being a little bit judgmental, not listening. And I really had to slow myself down, do a bit of reflection about what was actually happening here in the relating that was making them not to be contact. 

How can, how could I now regain contact? And it was really quite helpful because we did like a kind of coaching demo and he volunteered and so I actually had to coach him and through that exercise had to really be present with him.

I had to listen to you and so in that I actually then made contact you know so but but it it really and then got to the satisfactory contact that you’re talking about see and I think also as he told his story in that kind of coaching moment it allowed the others also as they listened to this conversation to maybe see him in a different way and also make contact with him. But it really took a process of all of us possibly slowing down. And I think that’s also part of contact is the engaging, the connecting, and it’s also the reflecting that helps with that.

Oana Amaria: It makes me think of the coaching book, The Fertile Void. I can’t remember what the name of the author is, but we are all at some point reading it. And he gave this example of like, was coaching someone and found himself really bored and like wandering off. So what your story reminds me is that how we feel is a part of a whole.

If I’m feeling this way, there’s actual value to saying like, “hey,” and I think that’s what he did in the example. Like, “Hey, I’m finding myself really bored. Can you tell me something real?” He was coaching someone. It’s like, this is boring. Tell me something real. I’m, I’m it’s true, you know? And so I think that’s a really great example of the use of self also. Right. It’s like, if I’m feeling this way, right. How do I use that as data to make contact in a different way?

Tsheli Lujabe: And actually, as you say, tell me something real. The thing that I said was, can you say something specific? ⁓ Was talking in the general and saying, you say, can you give me a specific example? That was the thing that actually helped. Rather than me thinking, talking a lot, then I could think, actually.

There’s actually, it’s actually the general that I’m finding that I’m struggling with. Please say something specific, which then helps. Yeah.

Oana Amaria: What do you think is like the cost of not showing up that way. For example, I think about our program and how I continue to challenge myself to show up while also protecting because there is plenty to navigate in between the two polarities. And I think about, and we all have our own definition of a showing up means, right? But I’m wondering, what do you think?

You would maybe even in that example or the example that you’ve shared, Nnacee, like, why? Why bother? You know, and other than of course, satisfaction and growth and all this stuff, but on a practical level, oftentimes, we’re protecting ourselves for a reason or we’re scared or anxious for a reason. And that’s really hard to…not see or not feel, right?

Nnaceesay Marenah: Yeah, I mean, in line with that, think what Tsheli said about the inner dialogue that goes on in your head before you even make contact, like even being aware of that and thinking of and testing that out. Is that real? Is that a projection? Am I just desensitizing? Does this look like a situation that I’ve come before, come to before? I think testing that out for yourself, like gives you a better understanding of yourself and also a better understanding of your gut instinct. Is this actually right or not? And I think it gives you a choice also. So you can choose how to make contact. So making contact is not just in one way, but you can choose, okay, how do I approach this? Because self-protection is also important if there’s a real risk. 

But if we have this armor or self-protection around us all the time, then we…sort of miss out on these opportunities that humans do need to survive. Like we need to belong to a group, we need to survive, we need to make contact and connection. And there’s an impact for that in terms of our wellbeing, there’s an impact for that in terms of, you know, I think every aspect of our life. So I think making contact, even if it’s unsatisfactory, is data. It teaches you something about yourself and teaches you maybe something about the other person. I think more importantly about yourself and like, why did it rub me in this way? Like which part of my ego is feeling bruised, you know? Or did I not listen to myself going in? Should I have known better? Yeah, so I think there’s always data from contact and like, you know, staying away from making that contact, you don’t deepen your knowledge of yourself and then therefore you limit the choices that you have.

But yeah, sometimes, maybe an example for me is just I make contact in a different way. noticed when we were in ⁓ Cape Town the first time, I noticed that about myself. I can’t make short standing contact. I’ll always be like, okay, I’ll see you later. If we’re not sitting and having a 30 minute conversation, I’m not invested.

And I noticed that this is something that happens at the school gate as well. It’s not a 30 minute sit down conversation. Therefore, I’m checking out unless we can have coffee at another time. But what does that say for my relationship? So just being upfront with that to people and say, look, I’d really like to connect, but maybe over coffee for 30 minutes. Yeah. What are you thinking?

Oana Amaria: So you’re not like the ships in the night person, right? No in-between doors.

Nnaceesay Marenah: No. You know that Oana.

Oana Amaria: I know, I know. You know.

What’s funny though, like as you even describe the data and what it tells us about us, it’s also like, think about like, you could totally misfire about what you think is happening if you don’t pay attention to contact. Like if I showed up with my fear and thinking about…

It’s like confirmation bias, right? You get this one little nugget and that little, you start running with it, right? And people like me, I’m like wildfire. I have all these ideas then and I like run with it, you know? And it, yeah. And it’s interesting because as like all the research shares, know, we stopped listening to all the other stuff. And I think that’s the other piece. You miss fire and we lead.

Nnaceesay Marenah: Mm-hmm. You’re not alone.

Oana Amaria: We create the containers and we manage the containers and the energies, right? And then you’re taking it in a direction the system doesn’t need or want because of something that’s sticky to us. So I think that’s another really powerful piece, especially for us when we do train the trainers, do you know your stuff? Do you know your triggers? Do you know why? Because it is really hard conversations sometimes. 

And it’s, there are many, many cautionary tales that I could share that I won’t. But I’m, very curious to know what we miss out on, actual impact. I think my ego may feel good. I may get on a soapbox and tell you all the things and all the ways, but that’s not, that’s not like impact, right?

Nnaceesay Marenah: Yeah.

Tsheli Lujabe: Yeah, I think the impact is important. I also think this idea of choice is so  you know, when you said it, Nnacee just became figural for me around, you know, what are the, it matters because what are the choices that we make? And sometimes I think we can get into a state, especially if what I’m overwhelmed, you know, then I think I don’t have choice. And the only the only way is, I don’t know, just to be embroiled in the chaos or confusion or, or just going fast. And yet, in that moment, there might actually be multiple choices.  

At that kind of contact boundary with myself is. Being able to say OK, so what are your choices in the moment? You know. Even then, you know, like for yourself, Nancy at the school gate is, you know what choice? What choice do you? What’s the choice? You know, do is it that you say hey, you know, let’s have the 30 minute conversation or?

Nnaceesay Marenah: Yeah

Tsheli Lujabe: At that moment say okay maybe this is all we are able to do now but I would really like to take it further or not you know so but even just being able to to see those options so I see this idea of choice as being something that’s really important

Oana Amaria: Is there, now see with your example, I feel it’s super helpful. If you would have told me that I would know then I’m not offended. Then I’m going to send you a Calendly with a coffee date. Right. I’m wondering, if there’s like a small practice based on what we’ve all learned through this practice, that you feel you’re putting in place to improve the quality of the way you make contact or maybe the way you communicate about the way you make contact.

Nnaceesay Marenah: I think self awareness, just awareness that actually it’s not that there’s not successful, there’s not possibilities for successful contact. It’s just that the way that I make contact based on my, I’d say maybe cultural is a bit of emphasis there. And I think it brings us to the context of like multicultural contact. 

One thing that’s interesting, and I don’t know if you can talk about the program, but I’ll just say iGold is that it is so multicultural. People are from different places, different work experiences, different backgrounds. And I think we all make contact differently. And as humans, we think, no, this is the way to make contact, you know? So I’ve just had to say, and obviously parents who are Spanish totally get this, know, parents who are African, they totally get this, you know?

Because then it’s like long coffees and long dinners. And then parents who don’t come from that sort of multi are okay with a high and a bi. And today I did stay a little longer. So I stayed for an hour. But I think it’s thinking about like, what is the multicultural basis? What is my stuff? And what is someone else’s stuff? It’s not that the person, like you can’t get to a deep, satisfactory conversation with the person. It’s just that maybe that space or that environment is not possible in saying to the person.

I’d really love to connect. So maybe let’s do coffee at some point and then actually making time for that coffee. But just the self-awareness, I actually realized that I got. So I think self-awareness is probably the first thing. I think when we make contact, sometimes we’re prone to saying, no, let’s fix the other person. But then like realizing like, what is it that’s going on with us? Like what makes it difficult? What makes it challenging? You know, like what’s going on in our own heads? sort of supports that moving forward, yeah.

When we’re awake, I mean, I’m not awake all the time, but when we’re awake, yeah.

Tsheli Lujabe: Yeah, I would agree with you with the self awareness and I think for me what I would add is sometimes not only having the internal dialogue. I think for me the learning around myself and understanding of self has been through

Tsheli Lujabe: Partially having the internal dialogue, but then also vocalizing some of that stuff in the way that we’re doing now. And I think through the vocalizing of it, I find that then I learned. there’s the self-awareness, but then there’s the, how do I say it out loud? Not all of it, because maybe some of it does need to stay quiet. But, you know in the sharing, then I’m learning something else. And I think that’s that, is it intercultural, intercultural piece, where the cultures cross over and the cultures connect. Because I think that’s also what I find I’m learning on the program is, and I think in life in general is, as you connect with other people there’s points of  okay but my culture is like this as an individual and maybe my wider yeah national cultural background but also where the points of interconnection

Oana Amaria: Yeah. think the points of friction are in the meaning making in those intercultural exchanges, right? So like my expectations of someone and then what that means when it doesn’t happen, right? think is very interesting. I’ll share a quick story for me that I think is…safe enough for a podcast. But in my old job, there was a new team member that joined and we were having a team dinner. We were in Chicago and we were all sitting ordering our food and I ordered my food and then this new team member was like, “Oh, I’ll just share with you.” And I think you both know me enough by now, don’t invite yourself to my meal.

No, you’re not. I ordered what I was gonna eat. And I make this joke all the time because both my husband and I are former communist kids. And you just don’t do that. And then I remember at the dinner, our boss at the time, they’re like former Peace Corps people, and they’re like, “Oh but I lived in a communist country.”

Then it became all about their experience. And I was like, you know what? You’ve never experienced communism in Romania. You don’t know what my childhood was like. You don’t know. Right. But it was so simple, like in its form, right. It was food. But 10 years later, I’m still like, don’t you dare invite yourself to my dinner. And again, if we had co-created the ordering together, I would have been fine, right? Saying it out loud. And then it became this big, like, I can’t believe you don’t like to share. You know? 

Tsheli Lujabe: Yes.

Oana Amaria:

But also it’s like a really good example of what that point of friction is. And I think what’s really, really hard with something like our program is that it is so visceral and raw and real sometimes, and you can’t help but show up in your identity and in your fears and in what that means for me. And can I trust you with this story?

Even how I feel now versus the start of our podcast, because it’s such a different format than how we usually interact, it felt awkward and weird. And then we warmed up and we showed up and we made contact. Right. And I think that’s the part that I’d love to figure out. How do we translate that to people that don’t do this? Like we do.

Nnaceesay Marenah: I mean, there’s a willingness aspect of it, this willingness to change and change is painful. So every time you make contact with someone, there’s going to be the pain of losing your old self and letting go of the beliefs that you have. And then, you know, being courageous enough to sort of like step into this new you that you didn’t even know was there, you know, I can definitely relate to the program being raw.

And I think the way it’s stacked is that you help but show up as yourself. I’m like, I’m gonna sit in the corner and observe. And as soon as something goes off, I’m like jumping in there and like, no, no, no, intervening with the client. And I can’t even rein myself in. That’s how much of myself I am. I can’t rein myself in. And then when the momentum is down, I’m like, “Oh wow.” I think in the first one, I was kind of like,

Oana Amaria: People like you!

Nnaceesay Marenah: No, that’s not me. And then afterwards, it’s just like, ⁓ that is me. Like the second time around, that is definitely me. So, yeah. So I think just becoming face to face with yourself is one of those things you must be willing to let go of who you think you are to, you know, this ideal self that we all have to become this whole fuller self that you speak about.

And I think this aspect of in-scaping, because I think we spend so much energy thinking, what’s Tilly thinking about? What’s Tilly thinking about? What’s Nnacee thinking about this? Does she like my hair? Does she like my glasses? And I think sometimes when we just in-scape and say what we’re thinking, it sort of takes away the pressure. And I think that’s something that we do quite well. We’ll be like, my goodness, don’t judge me, but this and this and this and this. And we’re OK with that. We know that we’re more than this single way of presenting ourselves and we leave with that or without that. But I think just having that space to be able to do that, we’ve all taken a risk to go on a program and become a triad, which is what we are. I mean, that’s a risk. That’s it’s a risk.

Tsheli Lujabe: Yes.

Oana Amaria: We need to release, like a block through of terms after this one. Yeah.

Tsheli Lujabe: And being okay with being a triad, whilst also noticing the other configurations one finds oneself in. Because I think that’s the thing is that one shows up in multiple ways. So yes, we show up as a triad and there’s a multiplicity of other ways in which we show up. don’t know why this came to mind but Oana as you were talking I was just thinking you know in fact as you were both talking I was just thinking there’s also times where like knowing who you are or what you want and need in a moment and being able to claim that and articulated and it being accepted by somebody else is also contact. And let me give an example because I think it’s that whilst we are a triad, there’s times where, you know, I’ll say to you, Oana, do you wanna wake up at six o’clock in the morning and go for a walk with me? Well, I run.

Nnaceesay Marenah: Yeah.

Oana Amaria: Moon-eyed.

Tsheli Lujabe: And you’re like, ”No, Tsheli, no, that’s not for me. I’m going to sit this one in. I really want to just rest and I want to sleep and then feel revived. And, you know, I will arrive in the morning in the way that I want to arrive,” you know, and I’m able to be like, “Yeah, OK,” because that’s how you want to arrive, you know? And whilst maybe I want to have rushed around the world for an hour in the morning, or well, you know, run and that’s my way of slowing down and then, or feeling grounded and then it allows me to show up as me. 

But it’s you know, having the conversation and then you expressing your need, I express my need and then you know we can, even that creates a meeting and creates contact. So yeah, I just noticed that. So even through our differences and learning our differences, and being open. I think it’s back to your willingness thing,  Nnacee.

Oana Amaria: Sometimes we learn from our contrast, right? Like you don’t even realize how much you really wanna sleep in when you’re not with your kids until your friends keep asking you to wake up at five in the morning for a walk and you’re like, no, right? Or you don’t even realize how much you cherish like what you order until somebody tries to invite themselves into your meal and you’re like, no, right? 

I want to make sure that we don’t go too long. So I wanted typically when we have guests down, have two questions and I’m going to ask you both if you could share. We love to do plugs for other people and their work and what they’re interested in. So my first question is, what are you working on right now that you’re really excited about? And then what’s your parting request for?

Whether it’s inclusion champions or practitioners listening to you today, what’s your call to action as we close out?

Tsheli Lujabe: One thing that I’m working on right now is actually a podcast. So going to start up a podcast which is actually about voices of African leaders. So for me, I think that something that’s really important to me and I think it speaks to this idea of contact is the idea of the spirit of Ubuntu, which I think is quite central to African leadership, which is I am a human being because you are. And it is through my humanity and the connection with your humanity that makes us human. But I think it’s for me, it’s like, what’s the, you know.

What does African leadership look like in all its multiplicity? And what does it actually mean? And so I’d like to, I’m wanting to inquire into that and hear from, and when I talk about leaders, it’s like people from all walks of life that are leading themselves and others and the contexts that they find themselves in.

So my one parting request is really for people to pay attention and to be attentive to yourself, how you engage, how you connect, and that whilst reflection.

might feel like you’re going too slow. Actually, you need both reflection and engagement. You need protecting yourself as well as connecting with yourself and others in order to grow. And so that’s my encouragement to people is take the risk of making contact. It can be liberating.

Oana Amaria: I think my takeaway is that it’s worth the risk, who I’ve become, even if I think about the beginning of having the courage to start Firefly and when I was told what I could or couldn’t be or who I was or wasn’t, I could never go back to being that version of me and that took courage and I would say that making contact sucks sometimes and what you learn from who you are in those moments I think is really important and I think the growth is worth it. 

So whether it’s Gestalt for other people or something else, you know, I think for practitioners that are trying to figure out where they go from here, because of all the political and economic challenges, I think it really is about your purpose and your gift to the world. And maybe right now it’s packaged as this. But when you think about the stuff that really gives you energy, that’s a really good place to start looking. So I would say have courage to become.

Tsheli Lujabe: Lovely.

Oana Amaria: Thank you.

Tsheli Lujabe: It has, it’s been great and I feel what you said at the end there, Oana is lovely. Just we, I feel like we’ve been doing some becoming together.